Letter: Government actions don’t make sense
To the community,
After reading yesterday’s article on LTN of the USFS closing all of its parks and concessionaires, I thought it necessary to respond. I am a volunteer and on the board at Tahoe Tallac Association (Valhalla).
This move by the government agency is about as political as it gets and is just another ploy to try to get the American public to put pressure on congress to do their job and by doing so, our political leaders can shrug off their responsibility. The president has, I am sure, told all his department heads to shut down everything to make a point, and they are doing it quite literally ignoring anything that is self sustaining.
Bob Sweatt
I would also speculate that our local USFS leaders have their hands tied and are only following directions from above. The old adage “Don’t bite the hand that feeds you” I think would be an appropriate response to the current decision to shut down Valhalla and other self sustaining concessionaires.
Valhalla, a nonprofit, is totally independent of the USFS. We operate under the auspice of the USFS, caring for, providing access to and maintaining the site facility for the USFS. This is just the surface — we are here for the public, running the summer festival which includes affordable theater and music venues at the boathouse not to mention the free music on the lawn concerts. There is no paid USFS staff at the facility and we run the site on the income that is generated by the events that are put on here.
All maintenance and upgrades to the site are done by that income. We also pay the utilities and staff that are necessary to run the site. By cutting our ability to generate income for the site, the USFS is diminishing our ability to properly take care of the historic site we all love.
Now, we have to tell the wedding parties, etc., who have had reservations for no doubt a long time, sorry you can’t come here. Does this make sense?
Bob Sweatt, South Lake Tahoe
Bob Sweatt, South Lake Tahoe
Right on Bob! The egomaniacs running Congress should NOT be paid during this nightmare. I am so disgusted with Congress, I could spit.
Bob,
First of all, it was not the POTUS who shut down the gov’t, it was a small minority group in Congress led by Ted Cruz(R-Tx)and Michele Bachmann(R-Mn) and 30-40 other teapartiers in the 435 member House of Representatives.
All the Speaker of the House, John Boehner, has to do is allow a vote on the continuing resolution bill(passed by capitulating to the GOP funding number including the stupid sequestration extension by the way), without the asinine Tea Party demands to defund the ACA law passed in 2010, reaffirmed by the voters in 2012 and upheld by the SCOTUS, and it would pass with bipartisan support immediately and be signed by the President and the shutdown is over. After the gov’t is back up and running we can proceed to fix any glitches and problems we encounter in implementing the ACA through normal legislative processes.
Pres. Obama is not going to cave in to the lunatic fringe faction of the GOP on the healthcare law that has been one of the centerpieces of debate in primaries and national elections of both parties since 2008. This type of governing, by holding the whole country hostage because one faction(teaparty) of one political party(gop) in one segment(House of Reps)in one branch of gov’t(Legislative) is unhappy with the results of the last two Presidential elections, cannot be allowed to stand. If the teabaggers get their way because of these seditious tactics then governing by childish temper tantrum thrown by a small group of those who lose elections will become the new normal. We’ve debated this law for years. The people voted overwhelmingly to elect this President knowing that the ACA would become the law of the land.
It’s reflected in the polls that many people on both sides of the political spectrum think we can do better. Those like me on the left believe we should join the rest of the industrialized world with some form of single payer system that covers every one of our citizens. Healthcare results worldwide make the previous for-profit model, that was out of control and failing miserably, look stupid by comparison. Those on the right that wanted to continue down the for-profit path supposedly have some plan too and they’re free to support that and implement that when and if they win the White House in 2016. The ACA is the law we have to work with for now so let’s do our best together to make it work and move forward.
Thanks for informing us Bob. And a huge thanks for being part of a great effort to provide facilities that are rated the best in this country.
I would encourage everyone in and coming to the wedding to contact congressman McClintock.
Good luck getting any results by contacting Mr. McClintocks office-he holds the dubious distinction of being a ‘double bagger’- both tea and carpet- you will get the standard hate guvmint line from his people-hes a lost cause but hey call them anyway to show how disgusted we are with him
Very well written Bob and by the way, THANK YOU to you and all the volunteers at the Tahoe Tallac Aasociation. It is people like you that puts smiles and memories on thousands of people each year.
In my ignorant opinion, I blame BOTH sides of the government.
The Tea Party, who loudly screamed that the government needed to be shut down, is now louldy whining that they got exactly what they asked for. At least now they can see exactly how important and vital the government is. Too bad the rest of the country, the Tahoe Tallac Association included, has to suffer while the Tea Party failed their Civics lesson.
Maybe some of you rabid demos saw something in the article that I didn’t. What I read was the writer was saying that there was no reason to shut down Valhalla as volunteers ran it w/o big government assistance. Real simple even for big government advocates.
BB, have you wiped the spittle off your lips yet?
It’s pathetic to just sit back and blame BOTH sides of government.
…now scroll back up and reread BijouBil real nice and slow and let the words flow over you.
Elections have consequences.
Bob, by writing this letter, you have exposed yourself as partisan Fox News watching conservative. Your anger is misplaced and your conspiracy theory about Obama & the USFS is offensive. When a fire starts, don’t blame the flames, blame the person that started it. I will not support the Tallac historic site if you’re going to use that property as your own personal soapbox.
Do you think that by writing this letter that the site would be kept open? All you’ve done is lost the support of a local business that has supported you for years… I guess you’ll have to wait until next year to figure out who you just lost by writing this.
Bob Sweatt your a champ, as is all your volunteers.
As usual, common sense and good intentions are twisted by the ‘Libs’. Suspisciousmind you are spot on.
All the hate, destruction of our culture and American way of life is coming from the WH. Any opportunity to create division and crisis, that dude is all over it. Yes, I mean POTUS, Barry Sotero. This Country is being chipped away from within. To shut down the Vets Memorial in DC is a travesty and to trickle it down to local levels that have nothing to do with saving money shows how this administration panders to the uninformed.
Hateful, hateful mess of people that do this. Instead of getting out of the way so jobs can be created, they do this and create more unemployement nationwide.
We the People are being hurded and then stampeeded, hurded and stampeeded.
Time to wake up people, TAKE BACK OUR COUNTRY AND CLEAN OUT CONGRESS. This deplition of our National culture for the sake of a brooding POTUS, is intolerable!
BijouBil your comments are right on. The responsibility for the shutdown lies squarely on the back of the Tea Party nuts. If you are looking to blame someone there is your answer. Is is a sad day for the USA when a fringe minority group can hold the country hostage.
Woo, I guess I struck a nerve in this article. The article was written to bring attention to any concessionaire dealing with the government, especially self sustaining ones and the directive from above. We all expected the President to do what he did because the congress didn’t pass a budget. Was there another choice? Probably yes on how it was handled. Using a unilateral approach with no regard to who and what was effected is what bothered me. No blame was placed by me; I simple stated what has happened. For you that have turned this article into your own political agenda, that is your choice, but don’t put words into my mouth. Read the article again.
“Was there another choice? Probably yes on how it was handled. Using a unilateral approach with no regard to who and what was effected is what bothered me.” (in reference to the POTUS)
“No blame was placed by me”
Wow TahoeMom, harsh words. Hey Bob, don’t “Sweatt” what this lunatic said. Good riddance to her. I’ll now support the TTA in every way possible- and pass this along to all of my friends.
The whole ordeal is a disgrace for this country. We are spiraling the drain…and it is because of the practices of ALL parties. To intentionally close parks and monuments that require no oversight just make a political point is beyond belief. Our leaders are like four year old children. The citizens of this country need to wake up and CLEAN HOUSE. Remove them all.
Hey Bob-‘No blame was placed by me…’-so I reread the part of your letter about politicians and political ploys and such and it clearly states-‘The President has, I am sure, told all his department heads to shut down everything to make a point, and they are doing it quite literally ignoring anything that is self sustaining.’-I know how to read-thats not putting words in someones mouth-thats quoting you blaming the Pres. for shutting stuff down-and thats incorrect
Bob et al,
The Forest Service decision is the result of the inane government shutdown. Those who support this futile Republican action to force changes in the health care law can’t complain about the consequences.
The solution is simple: demand that Rep. McClintock and co. vote on a spending bill (continuing resolution) to fund the forest service and the rest of the government, no strings attached.
Call McClintock and tell him what you think: 202-225-3121
“Valhalla, a nonprofit, is totally independent of the USFS. We operate under the auspice of the USFS…”
Uh, say what? By definition, you cannot work under the auspices of another organization and simultaneously be independent of them.
Gee Bob, how’s that foot in your mouth taste? Don’t try to backout now and say that you’re not being political or assigning blame… Maybe you’re the one that needs to read your letter again…
“This move by the government agency is about as political as it gets and is just another ploy… ”
“The president has, I am sure, told all his department heads to shut down everything to make a point… ”
“I would also speculate that our local USFS leaders have their hands tied and are only following directions from above”
These are all statements of your opinion and clearly show your political affiliation. The notion that these shutdowns are optional has been thoroughly debunked. You have just put the Tallac association in the middle of this and now it will suffer as a consequence. I suggest you write a retraction and resign from the board immediately. I’ve already decided to pull my company’s support based on your soapbox rantings, if you retract now, I’ll reconsider.
HELLO BOB SWEATT : Don’t consider the comments from Bijou Bill and Arod reputable. They comment here all the time. When they are confronted by facts and cannot support their position with facts, they then resort to insulting the people whom disagree with them. I’ve seen the most vicious insults come from these two, and they should be ignored by all. Thanks Bob.
TahoeMom- it doesn’t matter if you pull “your company’s support”. What is your company, by the way? I’d love to know so I could stop supporting you because of your views. Are you strong enough in your beliefs to put it on this public forum, or will you just hide anonymously and make these threats?
Rep. Jim McDermott(D-Washington) as quoted in Huffington Post:
“Why would House Democrats give away what the Supreme Court and the 2012 electorate didn’t? You can’t say, ‘OK, you get half of Obamacare’—this isn’t a Solomonic decision. So we sit here until they figure out they lost.”
Jim, as usual, gets it.
I don’t think Bob Sweatt should resign from anything or be faulted for having an opinion. I do believe however that if you make your ideas about important political things that are happening, not only here in town but on a national level, public in this forum then you should be prepared to defend them in light of new information you may not have considered. You can say that what you said is not what you meant, but you can’t re-write what you actually said.
I think the latest posts from Marlene of Tahoe and tahoe Pizza Eater pretty much epitomize the problem we are going to have finding consensus until the fringe on both sides is marginalized and stripped of the undeserved power they have been given by oligarch’s money in politics.
Oh, Please people, his point is that there is no reason to close down things that do not rely upon the goverment to fund its operations. This was done to put pressure on political parties. Why do you all keep saying that the president recieved a mandate in the last election. He did not because if he did he would never have lost control of the house.
Dont close down things that do not draw on the Fed Goverment to make a point. Dont put people on unemployment just to make a point. Last time this happened did the Grand Canyon close, did Zephyr Cove, Camp Richardson. No they did not, why is this time different other than to put pressure on. GREAT the furlong goverment employees will still get paid, but what about those who work at the consessions will they still recieve their pay? No they will not. BUT LETS NOT FEEL BAD FOR THEM. They dont have kids to support, rent or mortgages or other bills.
Obama, Reid and Pelosi are surely a vindictive bunch.
Their contempt for Americans is illustrative of their nature.
There’s a reason why they say not to talk about “politics & religion” in public… You have every right to do so, but you often suffer the consequences of offending others.
Bob never should have decided to represent the Tallac association while pointing his partisan finger. But you did, and know you’ll have consequences to pay. And no, I’m not going to tell you what company I’m with because I’m not dumb enough to do what you did. You’ll figure it out in the spring when you call to ask for my usual support and I say “no”. Although I’m betting you loose more support than just mine, so it may be harder to figure out.
I’d recommend the Tallac association issues a statement saying that Bobs’ soapbox doesn’t represent the rest of the board and that you’re well aware that operating on federal land can have its shortcomings.
reloman- you have non facts about the last election for the house of rep- www. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/united_stateshouse_of_representatives_elections,_2012 _ you repeat misinformation because most people don’t know and don’t have time to find out- the Dems did not lose control of the house cause the gop already had it-more voters turned out for the dems than the gopers but gerrymandering held enough seats-too bad for you and the rest of the baggers that facts have a liberal bias
This letter was written by Mr. Sweatt — the resident. He put in the letter that he is on the TTA board as a measure of full disclosure.
He was not writing on behalf of the board. If he had, it would have been noted.
LTN staff
Sorry admin, but if you write a letter about the Tallac association and identify yourself as a board member, then you’re representing them. He would have been wise to state that his opinions don’t represent the rest of the board. He clearly didn’t think this through and that was an epic mistake that I’m sure he won’t do again. Hopeful cooler heads at the Tallac association will prevail and an apology will be issued.
Anyone who has the mildest bit of objectivity would see that the comments here are ALL partisan. IMHO, Bob made a good point, that the “shutdown” did things that were unnecessary. After that, the point was lost. Bringing up your affiliation with Valhalla was unnecessary. The comments following were mostly boorish and partisan in the extreme. As long as we continue to choose “sides”, the disfunction will continue. Government is not a zero sum game, it is our society and civilization, United.
Bob,
Bringing up your affiliation was justified and warranted, it demonstrates a level of awareness and understanding of the issue beyond a laymen’s. Thanks for your insights, sorry you are getting so much grief.
This administration is keeping vets away from war memorials for the same reason it is closing the Tahoe parks – it is vindictive, arrogant group. They are willing to inflict pain on the very people that fought for our nations freedom in order to get their way over us. Kinda makes ya proud don’t it NOT
These are the saddest of days for America. Our divisions are the result of these types of tactics.
No apology needed from Bob, no resignation and no concern for a decrease in funding. And I would bet that “Mom” has no problem doing business and taking money from those pesky Fox watching conservatives she deplores:)
Do you think that Mom is just in shock and reeling from the discovery that someone is volunteering their time and serving on a board such as the TTA(as opposed to a money grubbing business of course:)) while NOT being a card carrying member of the left?
That kind of information is a brain melter for some.
Reloman – you are correct that in the 1995 shutdown, FS concessionaires in the Basin did not close, but that was because 3 of 13 spending bills had already been enacted prior to the shutdown, including the funding for the USDA Forest Service.
I don’t know if the closing of concessionaires is political but I do know there are thousands of concessionaires across the country, and Bob contrary to your statement “Valhalla, a nonprofit, is totally independent of the USFS”, you are not independent, along with the thousands of others that are served and managed by the USFS (this management is REQUIRED BY LAW). This management, either at the local level or nationally requires staff that no longer exist, so the question for the FS becomes “since Valhalla requires little management, do we keep it open, but the Lochsa Historical camp in Idaho must close because it requires extensive management oversight”? Now ask this question THOUSANDS of times and envision the screeching you will hear from the closed concessionaires while some remain open and you see the dilemma the USFS is in.
While it is possible for POTUS to require every agency to follow shut down procedures per protocol without exception, it is more likely the FS is hoping the shutdown will end soon, but in the meantime the few remaining employees are running around trying to develop justifications as to why THEIR concessionaires need to remain open.
I agree that if a person identifies themselves as a board member that they are then representing the organization. That is why many of us, me included, must remain anonymous. We don’t get to gain credibility from our affiliation with an organization without a cost.
As a major supporter of TTA I personally know, more than most, how many hours Bob has unselfishly devoted to Valhalla over the past several years. I say good on you Bob and thank you for all that you do for us. I doubt that he has any political agenda in mind. I know how much he cares for Valhalla and for all of the staff and volunteers. This year by himself Bob completely restored most of the cedar siding on the Boathouse that was in major need of repair and already he is involved in the continuing major restoration projects planning for 2014.
Our wedding couples for October are a big concern with all of us. These couples have been planning their special day, in most cases, for over a year and to be blocked at the last minute is unthinkable. Tahoe is a destination area and the majority of these couples are not from Tahoe and neither are their families and guests. Lets hope heads clear and all of these lovely couples will be able to hold their weddings as planned.
Thank you Bob for speaking out.
TeaTotal, Yes I realise that there was re districting in the 2012 election. but have you asked yourself why they even lost the 2010 election. This last election was not a mandate for the president. You also assume my party, I did not vote for president last election(though I did vote for everything else)as I will not endorse a canidate I do not believe in. I really dont have a problem with the affordable health care act. I do have a problem when people say that elections where won when it was not a complete victory. I believe that America is so discussed with both parties that they like it when neither is in complete control. Both parties have gone to far away from the center from the nutbags to the right and the overzealots to the left.
Cut the paychecks of Congress and the TRPA and all the other self serving government agencies and use that money for something tangible for local communities !
The problem is the problem, OBAMA CARE is the problem.
AMERICA DESERVES A DELAY !
It is a fraud being forced on Americans based on lies and deceit from the radical left.
Finally Republicans are standing strong and stopping the devastation that is occurring to our country.
These shutdowns are being ordered from the top to cause as much trouble as they can and most of these USFS lease operations have never been targeted for closure before considering there have been well over a dozen shutdowns, the difference? An angry tyrant, King Bumbling Bummer. The USFS has been reported to be trying to close lakes, boat docks, parks, WWII open air Memorials, complete thousand mile ocean bays, campgrounds, all national parks and now locally, Sly Park Science Center that brings inner-city kids to the forest, Sly Park has no USFS presence except for a road. As usual, where or where is their liberal media now? Haven’t they covered up enough yet?
A malicious act of a government turned against it’s people intended to, in effect, beat them into submission. That’s team Obama, Reid Pelosi.
You been watchin too much Fox news McCoy.
It’s pretty obvious the Tee Baggers started this shutdown and a small group of Repubs tagged on to make it happen. The sales pitch from Repubs that it’s Obama and Dems causing this has really ticked-off most Americans.
Affordable Care Act is law and will survive this extortion attempt by your heros. This latest Repub/Tea obstruction guarantees your righties won’t stand a chance in 2016 as well.
Get over it McCoy….. you’ll learn to enjoy life under liberal leadership over the next 6 – 10 years…….
Obama is a vindictive and hate filled President.
First he lies and deceives America about Obama care, just outright lies. All the warnings from conservatives are true even though Obama said they were not.
Wake up – HE LIED!
The liberals force this destructive failure of a law down our throats … Now instead of fixing his problem Obama is going out of his way to make it hurt for our veterans and sick children and forcing pain on people to beat the into submission.
That’s the liberals way…
America deserved better than what the liberals have done to us.
You folks have all fallen into the government trap of beating each other over the head. Divide and conquer is the government motto. How else do you explain a bunch of idiots, crooks and escape artists ruining our country?
King Hussein not only lied to the people repeatedly about the govt. you better buy health insurance or the IRS will target you plan, he is doubling down on it and will indeed shut down everything he can in a martial law type of practice try-out and as seen his minions are obeying his commands, the most notable being the USFS and all USDA public agencies. His minions also targeted our WWII veterans flown to DC to visit the open air memorial and have tried to barricade it to block people who will perhaps never be back. This is evil intent far beyond politics. The same can be said for shutting down USFS lease operations and other operations never closed by a shutdown before. These actions are intentional and coming from the top.
The Antideficiency Act is the law that mandates government shutdowns when federal agencies and programs lack appropriated funding. Since 1981, there have been five government shutdowns, the longest of which lasted 21 days, from December 16, 1995, to January 6, 1996.
What the Antideficiency Act Says
The relevant portion of the Antideficiency Act reads:
“An officer or employee of the United States Government or of the District of Columbia government may not –
“(A) make or authorize an expenditure or obligation exceeding an amount available in an appropriation or fund for the expenditure or obligation . . .”
The Antideficiency Act prohibits federal officials from obligating funds before an appropriations measure has been enacted.
Its the “Or obligation” part that forces the shutdown. If a person walks into a memorial with dirty shoes that requires sweeping that is an “obligation.” The person who allowed that is guilty of a misdemeanor.
Don’t like the law, change it.
Why isn’t the USFS just sending employees home rather than setting up barricades and manning them which continues to spend money. If it’s a building, lock the door and leave. An outdoor memorial or park doesn’t need police.
Moral Hazard, Would not a open air facility always require sweeping even if no one walked acrost it or not.
Reloman, of course, but the garbage cans don’t need emptying. The real point however is that the penalty is a criminal penalty for violating that act. It creates an oversensitivity to the “or obligation” part of the whole thing.
Tahoeadvocate, the law provides an exception for public safety which means the USFS cops are still being paid.
Thank you Moral Hazard.
Life in the bubble continues for the Republican Party. There are so many lies and ignorance of the facts posted here it is shameful. McCoy your views are laughable. It reads like FoxNoNews talking points. I call them like I see them and if some are offended too bad. I have reached a level of frustration with the nuts. There is no room for educated debate. No more MR. Nice Guy.
More insults to the American military as the Obama Administration stops payments to the families of fallen solders. More “in your face” politics from the leftists destroying America.
Obama is the most arrogant and shameful president in our history.
Pure Prejudice McCoy …. just like the rest of the Tea baggers. Never have we seen such hatred for a president which goes way beyond party principles.
Get over it – your conservative party is done for….
Prejudice, based on what?
I call the administration out because I see it as vicious and hateful and trying to in effect beat Americans into submission by in part making the shutdown hurt the families of dead American solders, that makes me prejudice how?
(Because your “calling out” isn’t based in reality. )
CJ, you can place the blame on whoever YOU like, but the truth of the matter is that the shutdown and all its problems fall square on the shoulders of the House GOP. Even John McCain agrees with that statement, along with a slew of other republicans. And this babble of the POTUS not negotiating, well how is there any room for negotiation when the House GOP stance is immovable?
Bigpic, How can you say “the House GOP stance is immovable” ? That does not stand up to the facts at all.
They have made several concessions have they not? Right now the Republicans are asking for a one year extension. That is fair isn’t it? Many corporations and Obama buddies have gotten waivers for a year, we all deserve that don’t we?
“Right now the Republicans are asking for a one year extension. That is fair isn’t it?”
Why do they want an extension?
If there are no good reasons, then it is not fair and is unreasonable.
CJ Pubworks TV-The only one who had it right was Bijou Bill a few days ago-scroll up to the top to see who gets ‘called out’ and just who is to blame for this-those are facts-not fox
Conservatives compromised with Progressives for 100 years and government increased by more than 5 times. Progressives should compromise with Conservatives for the next 100 years to reestablish the balance.
Where has Obama compromised on anything? Why do he and the rest of the DC pols (and many of their favorite unions and corporations) get a waiver from the onerous program that they have forced on the rest of us? Why can’t anybody answer that simple question?
The law is so bad and so complex that perhaps a year’s extension for the PEOPLE (in addition to the one already granted to business) might give us a chance to weed through it and fix it or demolish it. That sounds like a good reason to me.
“The law is so bad and so complex”
So I am supposed to take your word for that?
It’s bad because: __________
It’s complex in that: _________
“Progressives should compromise with Conservatives for the next 100 years to reestablish the balance.”
Childish logic. You played with the truck yesterday, I get to play with the truck tomorrow.
Let’s assume that there is an absolute right and wrong.
You are telling me that we should do the wrong thing half of the time, just to be fair.
Think about how ridiculous that is.
Let’s look at some facts Repubs…. Obama was elected twice by Americans to do the job they wanted him to do.
You ( Repubs) already got your shot at Obamacare with Obama cavin-in on the “Public Option” which truly would have created true “competition” for Health Insurance and Medical Services. So – you won that one.
Now you need to accept the fact that you’re no longer in charge – and Obama is gonna play it cool ( that style you hate ) and let your Repub Rep Jerks in Washington bury themselves with their big mouths.
It’s already a done deal, just needs the icing …..
My suggestion – get some anti-anxiety medication from your physician.
If you’re going to assume that anyone who disagrees with Obama’s edicts is a Republican, you’re going to be wrong a huge part of the time. I’m a lifelong libertarian, and one of my best friends is a Democrat who HATES what his party has become.
Fish: It’s bad because: it steals personal liberty and destroys independence. Gives the Federal government WAY too much power and information over the citizens.
It’s too complicated because: 2000 plus pages. Duh.
With regards to your oversimplification of my first statement, I know you aren’t stupid. Don’t pretend that I am. It’s childish.
WHEN IS THIS GOING TO STOP? I MEAN ALL OF IT, SO TIRED OF THE BICKERING?SO TIRED OF POLITICS, WHAT HAS THE USA DONE FOR YOU THAT IS GOOD , THINK ABOUT IT HARD.
Dogula, its a complicated world. Laws are complex to deal with the inherent complexity we have created. The law is really quite simple, I read it in less than a week. Its a talking point to say differently. My goodness where would we be if laws didn’t reflect the complex nature of today’s society. We would have anarchy.
We need an occupy public lands movement here. People are now entering closed federal lands in Utah, South Dakota, Washington DC. and other places across the country. Thoreau would be proud.
” WHAT HAS THE USA DONE FOR YOU THAT IS GOOD”
Really? Really? This is the greatest country that has ever existed. We were founded on the belief in individual liberty and God’s goodness. How can you ask that? And if you really do ask that, why the heck are you even here? And what have YOU done for the USA?
@Moral Hazard; what’s wrong with anarchy, anyway? Looks to me like justifying a complicated bill by saying that our laws are complicated is an oxymoron. Maybe we need fewer lawyers and more doctors.
How many times have we heard “I’m a Libertarian” with that person thinking they can live in this country by forcing their own “free will” to do as they personally please ? Good for you !
We do have laws – and The Affordable Care Act is one of them.
Get over it ….. quit side-stepping your conservative political association with Tea Baggers and Repubs and realize your political and philosophical opinions and principles are archaic and are literally voted out. Ruining this country because of your self righteous moral opinions at this point only serves to further progressive free thinking people who want positive change for the future, and bring even more hatred towards your mentality.
Even your sacred Forefathers would slap you for holding back a country trying to be creative and enjoying progress.
The Constitution was written to protect the individual from the tyranny of the majority. I am not trying to “force my free will” on anybody. I want you to stop forcing yours on me.
And personal insults do not improve your weak argument.
What you call Free Thinking, I call Fascism.
Dogula wants a lot of attention, You sound mad, Sorry if I upset you ,,no more said
,
Hmmm John A you are supposed to sound smart and holier than thou by calling someone a tea bagger.
How is this an over simplification:
“Conservatives compromised with Progressives for 100 years and government increased by more than 5 times. Progressives should compromise with Conservatives for the next 100 years to reestablish the balance.”
“we should do the wrong thing half of the time, just to be fair.”
That is a summary.
Q: Why should we not do Progressive stuff?
Your answer: Because its not their turn anymore.
This is a government, not kickball.
Let’s just flip a coin then. Then we don’t ever need to think about thing.
Also… ‘lets not do anything to fix our dismal healthcare system’ is not a compromise.
And don’t give us this ‘i am not forcing things on anyone, im a libertarian’ crap.
You can your made up religious text to be included in government. You want the sexual morality of that book applied to everyone, through government. That is the worst use of a religious text, and the worst way to create policy. All rolled into one.
“It’s too complicated because: 2000 plus pages. Duh.”
Followed by:
‘I’m not stupid’
And…. here comes a triple shot of irony….
“This is the greatest country that has ever existed”
So, it is too complicated, we are the best country ever, and we can’t do it.
The plans for Curiosity were more than 2000 pages. Far more. Orders of magnitude more complicated (that means multiply by factors of 10).
You are discrediting yourself with your own ideas. I don’t know if this is more entertaining or not.
“I know you aren’t stupid. Don’t pretend that I am”
No one needs to pretend. No one is calling you stupid.
You are willfully ignorant.
Which is worse.
Example: You think that our healthcare system is the best, and that 17% GDP is an acceptable expense for that system.
When in reality, it ranks near the bottom in the world, and is the most expensive in the world, with the second most expensive system coming in at a little over 12%.
You can not deny any of that and expect people to treat you as an intellectual equal, or as a remotely rational human being.
And I can’t deny that you actually do that.
Again, no one is saying you are stupid.
Obama, Reid and Pelosi have caused so much damage to our country and brought on so much hate and division. Obama care is just one of many failures including the Benghazi massacre and Fast and Furious. A horrible administration by any measure.
Rollout Failure – Obama care may well be one of the worst executed national efforts ever committed in America. How could they possibly manage the health care system well?
It is as it was warned it would be – a Liberal Failure.
Dogula – So glad you mentioned “Tyranny of the Majority”. By definition it means that you choose not to live in a democratic society ( USA ). All conservatives always interpret the constitution to suit their own personal desires.
All Libertarians continually use this word Tyranny when describing their displeasure of our accepted government principles. Well, the majority accepts our democracy anyway – as seen by repetative election results.
By definition “Democracy is a form of government in which all eligible citizens participate equally—either directly or through elected representatives—in the proposal, development, and creation of laws. It encompasses social, economic and cultural conditions that enable the free and equal practice of political self-determination.”
You are free to leave the country in search of another country and government or free society that allows you the individual freedom you demand.
John A; we are not a democracy. We are a Constitutional Republic. For the very reason of protecting the rights of the individual against the tyranny of the majority.
dogula-You could always move to one of those countries that have successful societys based on libertarianism like… oh wait-that would be none-unless maybe Somalia-also your narrow interpretation of the Constitution is about equal in intellectual weight to your creationist interpretation of the bible-both obviously bogus
And perhaps you could move to one of the successful Communist countries. . .
Why do you lefties always feel such a great need to demean those you disagree with? No wonder the country is so divided.
Dogula – you know when you’ve won an argument with someone when they resort to name calling. I heard that Obamsa’s popularity just dropped below George Bush’s rating for this date in his presidency, so maybe people are finally opening their eyes to the damage that he is doing to the Republic. Regarding all the back and forth in these postings, it proves the old saying that “liberals value equality above all else while conservatives value liberty.”
The fact remains that this entire shutdown was engineered by the Tea Party and the GOP. This drama cost $24 billion. You can have your personal fantasies, but not your own unrealistic facts. But I sure want to thank Bob and all of the TTA volunteers. The Tallac site is a peaceful place to enjoy, even at the height of tourist season. Having worked with the volunteers for several years, I know this area would not be as well preserved without their dedication!
Ted Cruz tried to stop the damage that is now being done to our country by this disastrous law.
At least someone had the guts to try and do the right thing.
Millions of people are being forced out of their insurance policies and having to pay massive increases in rates.
It is down right un American as far as I am concerned.
From here it gets worse.